The tones, the tones!

[GreenAirplane]

Some 2 years back when I started learning Japanese in a language school, one of my classmates told me a bit about Chinese. He told me about the 4 tones, how the same syllables said in different tone would mean something completely different. I think he mentioned a little singsong for kids that goes 'Li li li li li ...' and is actually a story about some old fisherman. Then he said something that discouraged me from making any attempts at starting to learn the language at the time.
He said that when learning to pronounce Chinese, it is necessary to have someone who will guide you, and correct your mistakes. A native speaker, or at least someone who's really good at it. Otherwise you don't stand a chance of learning it right.
I didn't have the time to start taking Chinese classes at that time, so I decided to postpone any efforts for a few years.
I still don't have time to start taking classes, but when I heard that folks at jpod101 are launching a Chinese site, I simply couldn't resist.
And so I came here and hit the wall with the pronunciation. I'm slowly starting to distinguish the words in a spoken dialog, provided it's simple and I've heard it enough times - I'm talking basic bootcamp and beginner lessons here.
But how do I learn to pronounce? Is there a way to learn it on my own? And how can I be sure I've got it right?
Furthermore, it's obviously crucial to learn and understand pinyin as soon as possible.
I guess there is lot of information on pinyin on the net, but some simple and comprehensive explanation is something I'd expect to find in this site's reference materials. Will I be able to find it there any time soon?

[Psy]

I wish I had more time, but as it is I have to be brief.

First and foremost: Don't be so afraid. Pronunciation and tones are, indeed, critically important to being understood. However, if you don't even work to understand the language in your head through listening, you have even less of a chance to develop proper pronunciation. The more you listen, the more the strange sounds will clarify for you. If you have the interest, there's no reason to put off studying.

Secondly: Learn a bit about phonetics. Hearing the difference between "shi" (retroflex: hook your tongue backwards) and "xi" (tongue behind your lower teeth, lips wide) is one thing, but to understand how to properly position your tongue/lips to achieve the sound is something you can actually feel. Counter-intuitively, this will also make a huge difference in how you hear the sounds.

Thirdly: Relax. Any human on earth is born with the capacity to learn any language spoken by any other human. You're no different. The caveat with more "exotic" languages like Mandarin Chinese is that you need to disassociate yourself with the habits you've grown up with as an English speaker. You need to learn how to listen objectively to the sounds as they are and not how they relate to what you know in English. This is also true with vocabulary and grammar. As this is something that cannot be fully appreciated if you only speak one language, it will take a great deal of time to gear your brain in the right direction. However, with the right motivation you will get it. That's a promise. Chinese is no more impossible than English.

加油！ (jiā yóu -- good luck!)

[maxiewawa]

My experience is that Chinese isn't any more difficult than any other language... it's just when someone explains the concept of tones that it seems a little scary.

You said that:

And so I came here and hit the wall with the pronunciation. I'm slowly starting to distinguish the words in a spoken dialog, provided it's simple and I've heard it enough times - I'm talking basic bootcamp and beginner lessons here.

...And I think that's true of any language. As for pronounciation, I think the best thing to do is to just say it... if the other person doesn't understand I guess you've done it wrong, and you should try again.

My main point is that Chinese is difficult in concept; it's difficult when someone explains it to you but if you just jump in it's not so bad!

I was very heartened to hear that you're starting to distinguish the words in a spoken dialog... you're almost there! Keep it up and you'll distinguish all the words in a spoken dialogue...

As Psy said, 加油！

[GreenAirplane]

Hello,

thank you both for your kind words. I was, however not looking for encouragement. I have enough motivation and willpower to learn the language. What I was looking for is a method that would enable me to learn the correct pronunciation of mandarin Chinese.
The fault is mine, I made the post confusing with all the stories of 'what I've heard about Chinese.' I was just trying to best describe my situation.

As for pronunciation, I think the best thing to do is to just say it... if the other person doesn't understand I guess you've done it wrong, and you should try again.

The thing is, there is no 'other person'. As I have tried to explain, I'm learning completely by myself, using nothing else than chineseclass101, at the speed of one lesson a day (sometimes not even that) It's not that I don't want to study harder, seek other sources, to immerse myself in the language. It's that I don't have time for much more. I have school, I have a job. When I have some free time, Japanese is still priority no. 1., and it will stay like this for at least another year.
That's why I planned not to start learning Chinese for some time. When this site came around, I changed my plans to 'I'll start learning the basics at a slow pace, then increase my efforts when the time comes.'
So I'd like to ask again:
How should I learn the pronunciation? Can I do this on my own? Or should I seek someone to help me?

Thank you.

[miami_meiguoren]

one of the big issues im having is all the words that have the same tone that sound the same with that have different meanings.
you definitely have to learn the language in context.
chunks....

i think ive heard that before




i didnt use the word "lexical"

[GreenAirplane]

Don't worry, I've had a lot of experience with homonyms, Japanese is full of them

[maxiewawa]

I don't see how Chinese is different to any other language; if you feel that your ear is good to pick up the pronounciation on your own, you should try to, if not you'll need someone to correct you.

Do you have a Skype account? That's probably a good way to talk to someone who might be able to tell you unequivocably if you're saying something right. Or read something on YouTube. I'm sure someone would point out where you're going wrong. My Skype is maxiewawa by the way.

[Psy]

I had thought I mixed a few suggestions in with my encouragement, but to re-word it:

1: Listen a lot. You'll never be able to pronounce something you can't distinguish by ear. When you can hear the tones, you'll be able to mimic them more accurately. One is flat and high, two is rising, three is low and gravelly, four is a sharp drop, and five is a bit of an afterthought.

2: Record yourself. This can hurt, but it can also really help. Most people don't like the sounds of their own voices, so be kind with yourself on this one.

3: Explore the phonetic differences between such sounds as shi/xi, chi/qi, zhi/ji, how the R is pronounced, vowel slides such as hao/hou/huo, etc.

By the sound of it, you're the type of person who is going to listen hard and obsess over every single detail, so chances are you'll do better than most right out the starting gate. Work hard and good luck, the rewards are worth it.

[shanshanchua]

I second Max's suggestion about posting a video on Youtube if you want to check your pronunciation. Post the link here, and I'm sure you'll get responses. After a while, you probably won't need to be checked, since the 4 tones are the same, no matter what word it is.

[dfdrumond]

You can try livemocha.com. There you can record yourself speaking and native speakers give feedback. Of course, it's expected you return the favor doing the same for English learners.
Also, instead of Skype (or in addition to), I suggest QQ. It's the most popular instant messaging in China and it has support for voip just like Skype. Unfortunately, Voice in QQ works only in Windows. Mac and Linux users can just talk by text messages.

You should also record yourself speaking some known text (for example, a chineseclass101 podcast) and listen later, comparing yourself to original audio.

[GreenAirplane]

Long time no see,
thanks for the replies.
http://www.livemocha.com/ sounds promising, but I recall the folks on the show talking about a voice recording tool that's part of this site. I've been going through the learning center and I can't seem to find it. If someone could point me in the right direction...
I have met with a friend (actually a classmate from my Japanese class) who's an advanced student of Chinese and agreed to help me.
Here I found out that I probably do have the ability to learn the pronunciation, and that I need a more intensive approach if I'm serious about this (which I am).
It seems to me that the best thing to do would be to start learning the syllables - how they are written in pinyin and what they sound like in each of the tones.
So what I'd like to find is a resource with these elementary sounds broken down (not necessarily all of them, I hear there's quite a few) so I could see a sound written down, hear it, try to reproduce it (maybe record myself and compare) then try another one.
We agreed to meet again after I've made some progress, so now it's imperative I do make some.
I'll do my best to explore the possibilities you have suggested, in the mean time I'll be grateful for any new ones.
Thank you.

[GreenAirplane]

I've just come across this site http://www.hello-han.com/ch-education/y ... eku-en.php
it seems to be just what I need, but I could easily be misled. Perhaps if some of you pros could have a look at it and tell me if it's any good - particularly whether or not the sounds are authentic, and if this is the 'standard mandarin' that this site teaches.

[shanshanchua]

Green Airplane, that site is good!! It sounds very accurate to me and I think it's an invaluable tool for anyone learning Chinese. I'm going to highlight it in a separate forum post.

[demen.alisa_43943]

You can try livemocha.com. There you can record yourself speaking and native speakers give feedback. Of course, it's expected you return the favor doing the same for English learners.
Also, instead of Skype (or in addition to), I suggest QQ. It's the most popular instant messaging in China and it has support for voip just like Skype. Unfortunately, Voice in QQ works only in Windows. Mac and Linux users can just talk by text messages.

You should also record yourself speaking some known text (for example, a chineseclass101 podcast) and listen later, comparing yourself to original audio.

Hi!
As you may have heard, Livemocha is no longer in business and that link no longer works.
Also, site, https://www.lingq.com/, is an web and mobile language learning tool for learning languages in context. This is a good analog of Livemocha!

[mr88cet_44048]

Pimsleur does a great job of coaching pronunciation, FWIW...